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Author Topic: Resistant starch  (Read 21127 times)

Jan in Key West

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Resistant starch
« on: June 27, 2014, 04:32:58 PM »
I'm doing research for my little sister(who is WB) but having a slump in the weight loss department.....Dr. Davis lists among the resistant starches both raw potatoes as well as green bananas.....others say a cooked and cooled potato is considered a resistant starch so my question is, who's right?


Last spring I did an n=1 experiment with 48 hr. fermented potatoes....tested BG before and after consuming about 1/2 cup of cooked and my BG only elevated slightly. All I did was put the cut up the potatoes in my Pickl-it jar with a salt brine solution and left it on the counter for a couple of days. Next week at our 4th cook out on the lake, I'm taking the plunge and making potato saled with the fermented potatoes.....using Barbara's Boursin recipe.


http://www.pickl-it.com/blog/783/traditional-potato-preparation-reduces-acrylamide/

Bob Niland (Boundless)

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2014, 05:11:18 PM »
> I'm doing research ...

Be sure to see:
http://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/resistant-primer-newbies.html

> ... who's right?

Your glucometer. If BG rises after the RS, it wasn't R enough.

I use a couple of tablespoons of Bob's Red Mill potato starch (not flour) which is apparently all RS. I just mix it into the WFMF granola or drink it in water (which is kind of chalky).

This is largely new territory in modern diets, so homework is worthwhile, as is having a glucometer (which I keep meaning to get around to).

Jan in Key West

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2014, 04:35:36 AM »
Thanks Boundless.....I have stumbled on that link in the past, interesting comments. Since you've been  adding the RS to your (daily?) regimen, what benefits have you noticed? Did you have an issue you were attempting to correct?

Barbara from New Jersey

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2014, 05:10:58 AM »
Hi Jan,


I've been making potato salads, rice salads and lentil/bean dishes for the past few weeks.  To get the RS I just make the normal dish ahead of time and refrigerated overnight.  I do try to keep the portions at less than 1/2 cup and eat these several times a week so I don't overdo the carbs.

All the beans are presoaked and cooked overnight in my crockpot.  For convenience, I make a big batch and freeze in portions which I would need for 1 meal or recipe.
 
Like the rice and potatoes, I'm eating these only sparingly and interchange them to keep from getting bored.  I like to use brined potatoes too!

I no longer take any of the pre/probiotics.  These hasn't been any measurable difference in eliminations.

Bob Niland (Boundless)

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2014, 07:13:34 AM »
> Since you've been  adding the RS to your (daily?) regimen,
> what benefits have you noticed?


Bowel movements pretty much optimal now.

> Did you have an issue you were attempting to correct?

Nope. Just an experiment, as we had some potato starch on hand.

I was mainly interested in keeping my gut flora well fed, which we may not if we eat mainly food digested before it gets to them.

The vivid dreams commonly reported may be seen as as a benefit or a hazard. If it's a benefit it's not my problem.

I was already having them, but on RS I start intense dreaming immediately on going to sleep, and not just in the later REM sleep. Topics are often quite novel. Is this instant dreaming also REM sleep? Beats me - great opportunity for bored sleep researchers. I tend to wake up at the same time every day now, with much reduced tendency to oversleep.

Apparently not everyone is entirely happy with the kind of dreams they get. There's also a distinct difference between what males and females are reporting.

BarbinNC

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2014, 07:31:02 AM »
So basically you could just grate some potatoes, and let it sit in the bowl for a while, then pour the potato and liquid off, and the starch at the bottom would be resistant starch?


Germans do this all the time, when making potato dumplings or pancakes.  Best results if grated by hand on one of those four sided old fashioned graters.  Every Sunday, that's what we did. Very tedious and sometimes painful, if you accidentally grate a finger …  ???


I am still reading and learning about this, it's starting to make sense, the whole idea of feeding the good bacteria and letting the bad die off. 


Still intrigued by the potato salad thing … that surely would be so nice to be able to have that dish again, I do so love it …




Rita

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2014, 08:46:33 AM »
Jan-   still think you should read The Perfect Health Diet just to read it.   :)

BarbinNC

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2014, 12:52:16 PM »
I told my daughter about the potato salad being a possible resistant starch food, and we are both really looking forward to trying it.  Can you think of any reason this would not work, or something to look out for?  I was going to cook the potatoes, then let them cool a bit and make the salad, a simple one with just onion, vinegar and oil, spices.  Would this work?  And then just eat a small bowl every day.

Barbara from New Jersey

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2014, 02:09:28 PM »
BarbinNC,


Let the potatoes cool in the refrigerator overnight.  You can add the dressing whenever you want, but the resistant starch forms on cold potatoes if I am understanding this correctly.  The "key" is to limit yourself to a 1/4 - 1/2 cup so you are not ingesting too many carbs.  Make a SMALL batch!  The same is true for mashed potatoes: make them a day in advance and let them sit in refrigerator overnight.  You can reheat without a problem.

deanna in AR

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2014, 03:27:08 PM »
Is it still resistant starch if you reheat? I made potato salad for lunch...boiled my potatoes. Let them cool. Mixed in other ingredients. Put in frig to chill. But actually, what I really love is warm potato salad...just made. Mine was delish today though.

Jan in Key West

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2014, 07:33:47 PM »
Has anyone eating cooked and cooled potatoes done any BG pre and post prandial readings? Dr. D says the only RS in the potato family is the raw variety....which is where most powdered potato starch comes from. I'm still conflicted.....resistant starch is not the same thing as safe starch. And then when using any potato at all, there's a huge difference in whether it is hybridized to include more starch.....heirloom organic etc.

Lila

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2014, 08:06:10 PM »
I can't trust myself with potatoes. :-(

Jan in Key West

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2014, 08:16:18 PM »
Lila,
I understand.....it's all about your BG....I've only tested myself with fermented potatoes but am anxious to see what others tested. I think with a baked potato, I'd be way over what Dr. Davis advises.

Rita

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2014, 03:12:10 PM »
I suppose we should add BG to the acronym list.   Blood Glucose is what Jan is referring to.


According to the Perfect Health Diet book, they say that low-carb diets cause the body not to respond to insulin signals, so it doesn't take in glucose after meals.   The glucose  is redirected to the liver, where it is stored as glycogen and released later for use by the brain.


This is a "physiological insulin resistance', and is a protective response of the body that assures the brain gets the benefit of a limited supply of glucose.   (They say that we shouldn't count vegetables as a carb source, as the net contribution to the body's glucose balance is virtually nill.)


Hyperglycemia is of course when blood glucose levels are too high.  Low-carb dieting increases the risk of "postprandial hyperglycemia."


They go on to say that we should probably focus more on a 'fructose index' rather than a 'glycemic index'.


The book says that starches should be eaten like this:


- cook gently and on low heat
- avoid industry prepared foods
- eat starches with fat  (this slows down the speed at which starches are digested, reducing peak blood glucose)  -  so put butter on potatoes.  :)
- Eat with vegetables (fiber reduces the glycemic index of the starch)
- eat starches with acids, especially vinegar   (vinegar, pickle juice, etc. which again lowers the glycemic index)






Lila

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2014, 04:56:13 PM »
Butter on potatoes! What a concept! :D

VibeRadiant

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2014, 01:45:40 PM »
I reading the posts on the homeshcoolingdoctor.com blog (part 6) about resistant starch and this is what she says about potatoes;


Baked potato has less resistant starch than potato salad.  Heated and cooled, heated and cooled, heated and cooled potato has more resistant starch than just potato that has been heated and cooled one time only.

Maybe it's time to add a small potatoe a day (with butter of course)!


VibeRadiant

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2014, 03:41:29 PM »
Question about resistant starch (RS).


How long before one starts to benefit from RS and will I "feel" it? Is there a time where it is best to take it? With or without food?

Rita

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2014, 10:13:20 PM »
I've been adding Bob Red Mill's Potato Starch, which has really helped with my ongoing constipation issue.


I have a friend who has diabetes.   She's still eating wheat, and her blood glucose is usually above 200.   She's now added 2 teaspoons potato starch, and her blood glucose has been as low as 107, but for the most part has been fluctuating between 135-160, which is a significant improvement.   She's done nothing else in terms of diet.  Those readings are the direct result of potato starch.

HungryinTN

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2014, 06:26:29 AM »
I tried RS for the first time last weekend (sort of).  There is a brunch buffet my boyfriend likes to go to when he's in town, but no matter how careful I am with it, it always upsets my stomach (probably weird food combining/too many different sources of protein).  So this time I added a small scoop of potato salad and - voila! - no stomach pain after the buffet.  I don't plan to use this new revelation as any excuse to go crazy, but it definitely help my digestion for that particular instance. 

jgilberAZ

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2014, 07:28:54 AM »
Potato starch made me achy all over. I had to quit after about a week or two.
Low Carb Since April 2009.

Barbara from New Jersey

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2014, 07:36:09 AM »
jgilberAZ,


It is the butyrate bacteria that the potato starch provides.  You can eat green bananas, heated and cooled rice, heated and cooled potatoes, purchase butyrate pills and many other ways to get this important gut bacteria.  I personally started eating a green banana.  This has a tangy taste to me and it is quite pleasant.  The trick is to find the bananas with the deepest possible shade of green and then store them in your refrigerator to delay ripening as much as possible.



Randal

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2014, 11:42:04 AM »
Does heating and cooling work with sweet potatoes as well?

Barbara from New Jersey

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2014, 11:54:06 AM »
Randal,


Yes, I think it does.  The more you heat and cool potatoes and rice, the higher the level of butyrate according to Dr. Paul Jaminet.
Potato salad, rice salad, even sushi would provide the necessary bacteria.  In our WOE, we would limit the amounts because of the carbs if that applies.

Lynda (Fl)

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2014, 12:43:29 PM »
I always found potato salad comforting.  I assumed it was the carbs but maybe it could be the resistant starch?  I always make too much and it gets cooled and warmed several times.

Bob Niland (Boundless)

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2014, 01:35:41 PM »
> ... purchase butyrate pills ...

Double-check that. I seem to recall reading that exogenous butyrate doesn't make it to the colon. You might still get some benefit from it, but no specific colon health benefit.

Barbara from New Jersey

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2014, 03:29:11 PM »
Boundless,


There isn't any way to really know about the effectiveness of butyrate pills I'm thinking.  Dr.s Mercola, Perlmutter and Dean all recommend pre/probiotics that they have developed themselves or have used and benefitted by.  No refrigeration needed.  My guess is that a great deal more research is necessary on gut biomes to know what really works and how much is needed.


By the way, there is a good series on butyrate by The Home Schooling Doctor.  I can't get this web site to list properly, so please try it yourself.

Bob Niland (Boundless)

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2014, 05:33:16 PM »
> There isn't any way to really know about the effectiveness of butyrate pills I'm thinking.

Probiotics are the gut bugs.
Prebiotics are gut bug food.
Butyrate is a short chain fatty acid produced by well fed gut bugs.

No/insufficient prebiotic: no butyrate
No/insufficient bugs (of the correct species): no butyrate

Consume butyrate directly?

Unless it's enteric coated, it appears that it won't make it to the colon, and maybe not even then. For maximum benefit, the entire colon needs to be awash in the stuff.

Anyone with a butyrate pill to sell probably needs to make some statement about how much makes it all the way down. I suspect that if this were easy, there wouldn't be butyrate enemas available.

One bacterium that is really effective at producing butyrate is Clostridium butyricum, which is only found in a couple of commercial probiotics (neither of which is on the WB suggested list, it's worth noting).

Jan in Key West

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2014, 05:34:31 AM »
For those taking resistant starch and curious about it's impact on your dream states....the following article may prove interesting. It's an MDA post....


http://mrheisenbug.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/why-resistant-starch-prebiotic-fiber-improve-sleep-and-dreaming/





Barbara from New Jersey

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2014, 07:12:24 AM »
Excellent article Jan. 


On the bottom right of this posting is another one on resistant starch.  Very interesting!  This one is long, but worthwhile.  Several important conclusions:  eat a diverse diet, including vegetables, fruits and legumes because diversity is important in biome health; and when you take an antibiotic, it may take a year to replace your flora to pre-biotic diversity.








Randal

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2014, 12:26:46 PM »
BBC article on resistant starch in pasta:


http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29629761


Of course we don't eat pasta...

deanna in AR

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2014, 04:12:51 PM »
Randal, from there I went to here...just on a whim...


http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25154046




Rita

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2014, 07:55:10 PM »
Randal -  Thanks so much for posting that article.  I've been very curious about reheating temperatures, as Chris Kresser had said something about reheating to no more than 130 degrees.  The paper he refers to however, leaves me with more questions, such as reheating potatoes in butter vs boiled water.


http://journal.pan.olsztyn.pl/pdfy/2004/1s/rozdzial3.pdf




Jan in Key West

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2014, 04:28:50 PM »
A Rosedale transcript of an interview regarding resistant starch.....my husband and I don't consume it, as yet. The study of our gut microbiome seems to be still in its' infancy.....


http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2014/11/10/ron-rosedale-fiber-good-or-bad/


And some additional reading.....https://m.facebook.com/notes/dr-rosedale-and-the-rosedale-health-plan/ron-rosedales-post-for-jimmy-moores-blog-about-so-called-safe-starches/210112022391448?mid=512

Rita

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2014, 09:48:57 PM »
There's a lot of research out there on the benefits of butyric acid:


Butyric acid has been shown to be effective in treating IBD, Crohn’s disease and ulcerative colitis
Butyrate has a normalizing effect on colon cancer cells
Mice that were fed butyric acid have a lower rate of insulin resistance, making them less prone to diabetes.
Butyrate has a direct protective role in cardiovascular diseases.
Butyrate is absorbed into circulation and is shown to have anti-inflammatory effects.
Butyrate improves immune response by inducing the production of regulatory T cells
Butyrate causes a large and rapid decrease in intestinal permeability. (Leaky gut as we know, is a major cause of autoimmune disease.)

Rita

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2014, 09:52:42 PM »
Here's an excellent resource listing the newest papers on the micro biome:
http://www.microbiomedigest.com


You'll probably also like this list:
http://www.npr.org/tags/172709084/microbiome

Randal

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2015, 01:13:38 PM »
I just started experimenting with RS through potato starch 3-4 days ago. I saw Boundless's comments above regarding the effects, but I was wondering, has anyone else tried it?


The past couple days I'm up to 4 tablespoons a day. I admit, it's thrown my... schedule off, if you know what I mean, but that's to be expected when you're changing your gut biome. As far as the vivid immediate dreams, I can attest to that. Yesterday morning I woke up 25 minutes before my alarm and decided to rest in bed. I fell asleep again and was well into a dream by the time my alarm went off. I thought that dreams typically didn't start until 90 minutes or so after falling asleep.


I need to start testing my blood glucose again, just to see if there's a noticeable effect.

Loanne

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2015, 10:48:20 AM »
I have started the RS thing (3 days), but haven't really noticed any change in my digestive system.  Hoping it helps; I have had kind of a diarrhea issue for some time.  Green bananas...smallish raw potatoes...hard peeling those bananas!!  :)   Not sure I understand the whole thing behind resistance starch, but am willing to give it a go.  Have also ordered some of Dr. D's omega 3's.  Trying to close all the loopholes for better health.  I get the feeling by reading your posts that there are several bloggers from the medical profession on here...please pardon my ignorance on these simple issues!   :)

Bob Niland (Boundless)

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2015, 12:26:39 PM »
re: I have had kind of a diarrhea issue for some time.
Not sure I understand the whole thing behind resistance starch, but am willing to give it a go.

What are you doing about making sure you have a healthy spectrum of gut bugs to feed on the RS?

It sounds like you may be starting with some disbiosis, and will need a course of PRObiotics (the critters) to go with your new PREbiotic fibers (RS - the critter food).

Randal

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2015, 01:38:16 PM »
Update: Saturday I had gas and was pooping a lot. These are all signs that I wasn't getting enough probiotics. I was taking one regularly, but thought my intake of kimchi and sauerkraut would suffice. Apparently not. I've cut down the dose of potato starch; I might have jumped to the four tablespoons too quickly.


I started taking a probiotic on Sunday. On Monday I also tried banana flour in water. Didn't taste as good as the potato starch in water (which I find benign), and definitely felt bloated in the evening.


I'm hoping that things will return to normal / stabilize in the next few days.

Bob Niland (Boundless)

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2015, 02:50:22 PM »
re: I'm hoping that things will return to normal / stabilize in the next few days.

Might be weeks.

I note that Dr. D. is lately advising a 60-day course of probiotics (plus adding prebiotics indefinitely).

The 50 billion CFUs in a dose of quality product, over 60 days, at 2 per day, only amounts to 6 trillion CFUs, or 60% of the normal gut population. One day's worth is only 1%.

And if you have adverse species well established, just throwing competitors and bug food at them may not be the complete solution (SIBO, Candida, C.Dif, etc.).

Jan in Key West

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2015, 02:55:42 PM »
Randal,
What was your elimination system like before you started the RS2?

Randal

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2015, 06:45:29 PM »
Actually, my eliminations were pretty good before resistant starch. Like clockwork, very quick and efficient, very clean and solid.


I've been hearing so much about prebiotics I wanted to give them a try. Also, I had gotten strep twice last year, and I was concerned about my gut biome because of the antibiotics.


I've also started drinking kefir yesterday. So I hope between that, kimchi, sauerkraut, and a probiotic pill, I'll get the probiotic species increasing. I'll still go for a couple tablespoons of the resistant starch for the prebiotic.

Bob Niland (Boundless)

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2015, 07:31:02 PM »
re: I've also started drinking kefir yesterday. So I hope between that, kimchi, sauerkraut, and a probiotic pill, ...

Best bet is the pill, if a quality product, stored and shipped with careful stewardship.

Food sources tend to be low in both CFUs and species diversity, but the larger problem is that in many, the bugs are mostly dead. If pasteurized, they are all dead fur shure.

Barbara from New Jersey

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2015, 08:57:24 PM »
Boundless,


The wisdom of NJ politicos prevails and raw milk products are banned in my state.  However, raw milk cheeses are available, although expensive.  Do you think that there would be beneficial pre/probiotic activity from eating the long aged cheese?  Its not a fresh or cultured product like kefir, buttermilk or yogurt which would be abundant in pre/probiotics. 


Any opinion or references?




Bob Niland (Boundless)

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2015, 07:00:11 AM »
re: The wisdom of NJ politicos ...

Suggested slogan, to to set voter expectations properly, should your guv decides to run for pres:
"Imagine the whole country as New Jersey"

re: ... prevails and raw milk products are banned in my state.


So get your own cow, or better yet, goats.

re: However, raw milk cheeses are available, although expensive.  Do you think that there would be beneficial pre/probiotic activity from eating the long aged cheese?

Dr. D. sez, in WBTH, that cheeses don't contain substantial probiotic bacteria, because most of them are removed with the whey fraction.

I personally rely on the three brands of PBs that WB recommends, only one of which, by the way, is a room temperature product.

These products represent the current thinking, of people who realize that this stuff matters, on what spectrum and CFU dose is useful. I expect the target to change as more is learned.  Next time I need one, I might try AOR Probiotic 3, which has clostridium butyricom (and none of the WB recs do).

Jan in Key West

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2015, 07:03:23 AM »
Don't forget to add some bone broth....the gelatin promotes probiotic balance & growth. It's been an important component of our dietary strategy for the last 1 1/2 years.

Barbara from New Jersey

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2015, 07:48:43 AM »
Boundless,


You are too funny!  NJ is a densely populated state and is a crossroads for major commerce.  While our esteemed Guv started out with great respect, he has lost much of it because of chicanery like the GW Bridge fiasco.  He hasn't done anything much to improve the state financial woes or crumbling infra-structure.  Most of us are rather disappointed in his performance.  To think of him as Presidential material is frightening!  Call me a snob, but I think he suffers from a grain brain mentality.


Thanks for the AOR Probiotic 3 name and the info about the raw milk cheese.  Seems to me that the biome bacteria colonies have to be an assortment of bacteria which needs a re-supply periodically.  It would be a good idea to introduce different bacteria I would think.
I do make bone broth and use it several times weekly in soups and sauces.    I'll pass on the cow or goat suggestion.   :D   

Bob Niland (Boundless)

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2015, 11:01:00 AM »

Loanne

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2015, 12:02:04 PM »
I've just now ordered the Garden of Life brand of probiotics.  I was taking Ultra-Flora, but sporadically, so I'm sure it didn't help.  I'm so excited about Dr. D's new post, since my sleep state is often interrupted and short...no dreams at all that I know of.  Am so anxious to get back in good health...if I even remember how that felt! 

Bob Niland (Boundless)

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Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2015, 12:29:27 PM »
re: ... since my sleep state is often interrupted and short...

Look into the blue light at night problem (which is not the same as the blue light hazard problem). Google "intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells" (ipRGCs).

Quick fix: get a pair of Honeywell UVEX brand blue-blocking eyeware, which can be had cheaply from Amazon and similar resellers. If you don't wear glasses, check out the S9133X. If you do wear glasses, get the S0360X. Put 'em on at dusk or 2 hours before bedtime. Put them back on for any night-time trips (and for checking actually urgent mobile device traffic). Get all sources of continuous blue light, or continuous white light with blue content out of the bedroom. This is not a fad.

Wheat Free Forum

Re: Resistant starch
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2015, 12:29:27 PM »

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