fermented foods?

[Jan in Key West]

Due to the high glycemic index/load of potatoes, I haven't eaten them since 2002....except for a spoonful on a rare occasion. Below is a thread on Kathleen's website regarding the reduction of sugars in fermented potatoes.....(and Rita, she also references several books on food chemistry which must be textbooks since they're in that price range). The ideal test would be to check blood sugar levels after consuming.....which is on my to-do list.


P.s.....last night we ate at the new French paleo bistro and I ordered the Heritage pigs ears cooked in duck fat....a great crunchy snack!


http://pickl-it.com/blog/783/traditional-potato-preparation-reduces-acrylamide/

[Rita]

Hi Jan,


Which size pickle-it jar do you use the most?


I'm still trying to decide whether I should buy those, or buy these lids:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B2B98K4

[Jan in Key West]

Rita,
I used the lids you mentioned (from Amazon) with mason jars but I couldn't get an air-tight seal....that's when I decided to start all over and go with the pikl-it system. Plus Kathleen is approachable and really knows her stuff.....far beyond any of the books I bought.


As far as jars go.....I bought several sizes and tend to use the 3 liter for bigger batches, such as cabbage and/or if you wanted to ferment potatoes in larger quantities. The 1/2 liter is great for making ketchup and/or small batches of onions, lemons, peppers etc......also the 3/4 liter is good for that as well. I only bought 1 each of the 2 &3 liter ones, and 2 each of the 1/2, 3/4, and 1 liter. I try to experiment with small lots. Kathleen (contrary to other fermenters) recommends doing only one food per jar and not mixing.....since they each have their own breakdown time line and some contamination might occur. She also recommends a longer fermentation time....I did my cabbage for almost four weeks before eating and it was still crunchy. We only use these in small portions as a condiment. I highly endorse this system and once you buy them, you'll have them forever. Good luck!

[Rita]

Thanks.  Good info to know.   I think I'll just bite the bullet and get the pickl-it.    Like you said, the smaller jars would be good for trying new things.   I haven't done the ketchup yet.  Still on my to-do list.  I'd like to make it from fresh tomatoes rather than tomato paste if I can. I'm not sure yet how to do that.  Probably need to blend tomatoes and them put that in my dehydrator.

I've got some daikon radishes fermenting now.   Someone in our class made those for the class to try, and it was fantastic.

I've been using a soft boiled egg holder as a weight in a mason jar that's being pushed down by my metal lid.  Time to upgrade.

[Suzhookem]

We've just started into the world of fermenting. Does anyone have answers


1. Is there a carb counter for fermented foods
2. Are potatoes with skins left on lower in carbs because there is fibre in the skin
3. How long is it necessary to ferment and do different foods require different times
4. We are currently doing our sour kraut for 4 weeks which seems excessive
5. I'm doing this as part of a process to get rid of candida. How many times per day do I eat the fermented veggies and how much each time. I thinking 1/2 cup at least 3 times per day.
6. Does fermenting remove sugars from fruit
7. Are some things better to ferment than others to put good bugs in the stomach.


After visiting the website Jan shared, pickl-it.com I was I surprised about the story the proprietress told about Autism. It was pretty shocking. Really good website though. I keep following a thread and never get to where I want to go. So much info, so little time!

[Suzhookem]

I read this whole post after I had posted. Sorry for any repetition! I remember why I didn't start fermenting anything besides sour kraut which has it's own pot. It's very intimidating. I've got a very few of the lids but after what Jan said ~ I need to rethink this process before I go any further. And I sure do miss Bing!

[Jan in Key West]

Suz,
Sent you a message....
Jan

[Suzhookem]

Thanks Jan! Appreciate you.

[Rita]

My pickl-it fermenting jars arrived!  ( Yippee… a new kitchen toy! )


I want to get a little more creative than the sauerkraut I've been doing.     I want to start 4 different ferments over the weekend.

[jones]

Is there an easy way to pickle red onion? 

[Suzhookem]

After watching videos I'm wondering if we can use Kombacha tea as a starter. Perhaps break apart a good probiotic and put in with the fermented veggies. Just sayin …

[Rita]

Jones-  you can pickl anything.


Suz -  that should work.

[Jan in Key West]

Being away, I feel so far behind reading all the new posts! Anything new in the fermenting world?

[Jan in Key West]

In attempting to locate an in depth book on fermentation and food analysis of carb values, sugar reduction etc., I keep running into this one. It's rather pricey and  I can't get far enough along in the book (on any book seller's site) to tell if it contains the information I'm after.....any science/nutritional minds have a opinion?


http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/handbook-of-fermented-functional-foods-edward-r-ted-farnworth/1101544905?ean=9780849313721#

[Rita]

Very funny that you are asking about that book Jan.   I've been looking at the same book, only on Amazon.  Pretty hefty price tag… but then again it is a reference book.

[Barbara from New Jersey]

Jan and Rita,


Mr. Farnsworth has published many books and articles.  Well respected and well known in Canada.  That said, as it is probably a basic text,
 I would check college book stores for a used copy or even the web sites for used reference books.  My information is a bit dated, but there is a market for used copies. especially given the price tag.  You might also call your local college book store or even ask your local librarian for help in finding a used copy. 

[Jan in Key West]

I did find a used copy on B & N for around $73, the used additions were higher on Amazon and when possible, I usually try to buy used hardbacks. Kathleen (of Pikl-it) references this book several times so it may be a worthy book to have around for our purposes. On another note, there are independent labs that will test and analyze food ingredients but the cheapest I could find cost $100 per line item! YIKES! I was curious about the nutrients in my bone broth, along with some of my fermented foods......but I'm not THAT curious!

[Rita]

This is the closest nutrient breakdown I've found on bone broth:  http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/recipe/2422683/2


Barbara -   I will check my school library.  Good idea.

[Jan in Key West]

I did find a cheaper used second edition copy (2008) on Amazon which has lots of updated information from the 2002 edition.


Regarding the nutritional panel on the bone broth....they apparently used Nutritional Bite's formula which is a 24 hr/mostly marrow w/some cartilage added plus garlic. Didn't mention pasture verses industrial raised animals, nor the difference a longer simmer time might influence the NF. Sally Fallon indicated they were going to actually have bone broth analyzed but to my knowledge , so far they have not done so. Thanks for the info.

[Jan in Key West]

I did my fermented potato experiment yesterday.....fermented an organic, heritage white potato for around 28 hours in 3.5 salt brine. I cut them up in chucks in the jar.....once fermented, I sliced and cooked in coconut oil, cooled, then ate about 1/2 cup. I have to say that not having eaten potatoes in years, they were DIVINE!!!!! Anyway, the moral to the story is that my pre-prandial BG was 81 and after an hour and a half, it was 86. Unfortunately, I didn't check at any other times but I had a big time crunch yesterday. I was pleasantly surprised....thought it would be higher.

[Jan in Key West]

Also, found another NF sheet on bone broth.......http://tracker.dailyburn.com/nutrition/bone_broth_calories

[Rita]

Jan-  do you think 28 hours was long enough for fermentation to happen?

[Rita]

I'm going to make a kimchi. 


I watched this video, which will most likely be how I'll make it:

But I also watch this video, which was more of a documentary on Kimchi, and how it was made the old fashioned way. 

[Jan in Key West]

Rita,
I actually followed Kathleen's recommendation (of a 24 hr. ferment) on her site for preparing potatoes to reduce the acrylamide, as well as reducing the sugars (which apparently go hand in hand). A 24 hour ferment reduces glucose from 610 mg/100ml to 7.9mg/100ml....fructose declines from 457 mg/100ml to 0 mg/100ml and sucrose goes from 132 mg/100ml to 29 mg/100ml.....I went a little longer because it wasn't meal time yet. For completely fermenting foods, such as cabbage, she recommends, at the minimum, going 6 to 8 weeks.


The kimchi looks good....am wondering the outcome if you left out the sugar and apple.....also a longer fermenting time.

[Jan in Key West]

If you're involved in fermenting your own foods, here's a good article by Kathleen regarding the stages of fermentation and why it's important to go through all the stages. The information is gleaned from "Handbook of Fermented Functional Foods.......


http://www.pickl-it.com/faq/148/process-microbial-lacto-fermentation/

[Rita]

I actually followed Kathleen's recommendation (of a 24 hr. ferment) on her site for preparing potatoes to reduce the acrylamide, as well as reducing the sugars (which apparently go hand in hand). A 24 hour ferment reduces glucose from 610 mg/100ml to 7.9mg/100ml....fructose declines from 457 mg/100ml to 0 mg/100ml and sucrose goes from 132 mg/100ml to 29 mg/100ml.....I went a little longer because it wasn't meal time yet. For completely fermenting foods, such as cabbage, she recommends, at the minimum, going 6 to 8 weeks.

Interesting.  I'll have to start doing that with my potatoes.  That's easy enough to plan ahead for.

The kimchi looks good....am wondering the outcome if you left out the sugar and apple.....also a longer fermenting time.

Would the sugar even matter?  That all gets fermented into acid right?

[Rita]

If you're involved in fermenting your own foods, here's a good article by Kathleen regarding the stages of fermentation and why it's important to go through all the stages. The information is gleaned from "Handbook of Fermented Functional Foods.......

Has your book arrived yet?

Also, on a completely different note, I asked Kathleen if I could add ferments from my mason jar to new ferments in my pickle-it jar.   ( I had made daikon radishes in the mason jar and thought I might be able to add that to the kimchi that I plan on making in my pickle-it jar.  Her response was interesting:

No, please do not use the mason-jar radish  to the Pickl-It.  They have nothing in common as far as microbes, etc.


Were you simply wanting to add the radish for flavor?   You are much better off adding fresh daikon right from the beginning.


Mason jar ferments offer too many challenges including mold, yeast that grows Candida, histamine, etc.

[Jan in Key West]

Rita,
1.). Yes, the book arrived....good stuff!


2.). It would be interesting if you ferment your potatoes, to do a BG test on yourself, first using an un-fermented one.....then check again after consuming the fermented variety. I have a feeling that my body's genome type is more tolerant of higher carb consumption.....don't know, never checked before WB.


3.). I'm not surprised that Kathleen spoke negatively about mason jars, she did with us as well. In all fairness tho, I had a very hard time getting an air-tight seal and had to skim off mold.  She basically told us to throw the food away....but now I use the jars for bone broth and at least they work well for that so they weren't a waste of money.


4.). Unsure about the added sugar.....I'll see if I can dig up any info on that.  Good luck with your kimchi!


5.). I'm also curious about RS in fermented foods....and whether there is any left after the fermenting process....

[Rita]

I had a fun afternoon today.   A girlfriend came over and we made kimchi.   She brought along her ingredients and I had mine.  So we just chopped and bumbled our way through making kimchi.   We've got a ketchup ferment going as well.


I can envision people doing kimchi-making parties.


I have to say it was a fun way to break-in my new pickl-it jars.


( And Jan… I know you're going to ask what the sweetener was in the ketchup.   I decided to go with raw organic honey.  I'm assuming the sugar just changes to acid, and therefore doesn't have the same physiological effects ).

[Jan in Key West]

Rita,
Reminds me of the coconut party I had with a friend in her kitchen (bigger than mine) the other day.....probably reminiscent of days when our great-grandmothers would get together with their friends during canning season.


How long are you going to let the kimchi ferment?


I'm wondering if having a small, second fridge would come in handy......you could raise the temp and move things from the counter to the fridge.....thinking in terms of a small, table model.


I used the last of my fermented ketchup for making BBQ sauce....added Annie's worchester sauce, some mustard etc. and it turned out great! Did you use Kathleen's starter?

[Rita]

Bet the coconut party was fun.  What did you all make?


I'm letting the kimchi go for 3 days.   I used a 2 liter jar, and it's only about 2/3 full.  Hope that will still work.    I used a yogurt starter for the ketchup that I found at Whole Foods.   I'm curious why I needed a starter for the ketchup and not one for the kimchi.   Is it because of the pH, or is it because there are not enough of the good microbes naturally in the ketchup ingredients?

[Jan in Key West]

>Bet the coconut party was fun.  What did you all make?


Well.....mostly a big mess!    Actually, we got some coconut water, milk and we dehydrated some shredded which I'm picking up tomorrow. Since I use much less of the milk, I poured and froze in ice cube trays. The shredded I use to make coconut shrimp and nut balls for my husband's tennis snack.


Because you used a salt brine for the kimchi, no other starter is needed.....for the ketchup, since it's not under a brine solution, one is.  I used whey, which Kathleen doesn't recommend so I've ordered the one she sells and will try that for condiments in the future. We're leaving here the end of May so I'm curbing anything new I make.....they aren't travel friendly!

[Rita]

Here's a good video on fermenting that Suzanne found for those of you who will be using regular mason jars:

[Rita]

The ketchup was a hit with the family!   Used the recipe from Mastering Fermentation.   It was made with tomato paste, salt, Worcestershire, raw honey, and a starter culture.    I let it ferment for 6 days.  (The book said 2 days, but I wanted to take a little extra time to ferment the honey.)  The tomato paste should be good for 2 months.

The kimchi also fermented for 6 days.   I think it's one of those dishes that you just eat a just couple of bites of as a time.  It's flavorful and has a bite to it.   I wouldn't eat a dinner size serving of it …   at least for me.   That would be too overpowering.  But in small amounts it good.

[Jan in Key West]

Great news! We loved the fermented ketchup too and it also works well as a base for BBQ sauce. We tend to eat the fermented foods in condiment size portions as well......according to Natasha McBride, the body only needs a little to promote the production of the good biomes. And she also says it's good to mix them up.....so your body doesn't have any expectations.


I did some sliced fermented lemons for a week in salt brine.....and while the liquid tastes good added to water, the lemons are a great accompianment as a topping for baked/broiled fish.

[Barbara from New Jersey]

Jan and Rita,

In the past, a local shop had jars of preserved lemons sold at a nominal cost.  I used to make a baked moroccan chicken dish using those lemons.  There are many recipes on line for the rest of the sauce.  I used boneless breasts and then cut it up in salads or just used it in wraps. Instead of a tangine, I used a covered large skillet or a clay cooker in the oven.  The chicken was extraordinarily flavorful.  This would be delicious in one of those coconut wraps. 


The shop is not in business any longer.  I guess I will have to make some.  I remember that there was a bay leaf, a few peppercorns, coriander seeds and a small stick of cinnamon in the jar.  This was one of those delightful items that just added a unique and subtle flavor to every dish it was added to. 


I'm going to have to buy some proper jars! 



 

[Jan in Key West]

Barbara,
I highly recommend the foolproof, 'pikl-it' system....it's easy and although pricier, I look at it as a long term investment. I'm still in the experimenting stage, discovering what we like, what we don't.....how much we consume etc. so that I can develope a nice flow. The one extra thing I bought was a cheap metric scale to measure salt when making the brine solution. Fermenting is fun.....and, in my opinion, an important piece of our dietary puzzle!


And remember....heating fermented foods kills the probiotic action.

[Barbara from New Jersey]

Jan,


Do you think a solution to the heating of preserved lemons might be by using the lemons in the recipe and then replacing them when serving the food?  Perhaps using 1/2 during cooking and the remaining half during serving? 

[Jan in Key West]

When I used the lemons on the fish, I didn't use them to cook, I just poured a little of the juice and added a few swirls of lemon on top when I served it. It's the same principle behind buying only refridgerated probiotics, it keeps the good bacteria alive. When I make a veggie/egg scramble, or serve meat with veggies, I'll just put a little fermented room temp stuff along the side. My goal is a least one (or two) small servings per day, and sometimes, I just drink some of the juice.


I can see a bunch of ways to use the fermented lemons......deviled eggs, avacados, chicken salads, green salads, and as an edible garnish on almost anything. I think it will become one of my staples.....

[VibeRadiant]

I made fermented salsa on the weekend and had some with dinner and OMG what a tasty treat. All those little bubbles dancing in my mouth booyah!


I used a glass mason jar with the usual metal lid. I used sea salt and a whey starter and it is so yummy! It isn't going to last long that's for sure. So now I drink beet kvass and eat fermented  salsa. My gut and flora are going to love me. 

[Jan in Key West]

Here's an updated interview Dr. Mercola did with Natasha Campbell.....I downloaded the transcripts because it's faster than watching the movie.


http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/ExpertInterviewTranscripts/DrNatashaCampbell042412.pdf

[BarbinNC]

Really interesting thread, and so much info I will have to come back to.  I remember my grandmother always had a big pottery jar behind the door in her kitchen, with Kraut fermenting … it brings a smile to my face, because the smell would turn me off, but I loved her Sauerkraut, so yum.  I was just talking to my daughter about this the other day, that we need to add some fermented foods to our diet, but the commercial stuff is not healthy for me, too much processing. 


will have to get those Pick'l It things … this sounds like fun!

[Rita]

Just wanted to share an interesting blog I ran across on fermenting herbs - http://fermentedherbs.blogspot.com

[Rita]

Here's a video that's taking fermented foods to the extreme:

[Redhead65]

I have read the first page of this thread now (will read the rest after I have gotten some sleep - it is 3.20 a.m. here), and I am getting a lot of new ideas here.
I have frequently made joghurt myself and also want to try to make kefir and ketchup myself.

Real sauerkraut is fermented - that is for sure. At the previous house where I lived (in  an apartment), my neigbour made sauerkraut in his cellar, and the smell was really .......how should I say.....a good way to make enemies.
If I ever want to eat sauerkraut, I buy a small portion at the organic store or at the butcher. They make their own. If anybody wants to try a new taste - it tastes wonderful with pineapplepieces and curry.

[Lynda (Fl)]

The pineapple and curry are an interesting idea with sauerkraut, never thought of that.  Thanks, Redhead.

[Jan in Key West]

Dr. Davis posted this fermented food company today on FB.....looks interesting.


http://www.wildbrine.com

[BarbinNC]

I came across this today, and thinking of ordering their kefir grains.  Always wanted to try that, I've made yoghurt and Quark in the past, but this might be even better.


http://www.culturesforhealth.com/free-ebooks-fermented-cultured-foods

[Rita]

I just joined that site a few days ago.   I also ordered the book.   I like the idea of all the creative cooking she does using fermented foods.


I too am thinking about getting kefir grains. 


Rita

[BarbinNC]

Amazing .. I think a lot of us read the same things.      I just came back with Mom from shopping, went to Trader Joe's and got a commercial Kefir, nothing to write home about, but I had such a craving, I drank half the bottle.      Hope that cleans me out, lol.


But this also looks interesting, so many ways to ferment milk, it's amazing.  In the comments I learned what it was my aunt used to make with leftover milk sitting on the counter top for a few days:  Clabbered milk!


Ok, going to make dinner now, I'm really tired from all the work today, but at least I have some things in the fridge to eat for the next few days.  With workmen in the house, I won't feel like cooking and baking much, is my guess.


http://nourishedkitchen.com/easy-homemade-yogurt-matsoni/