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Author Topic: Fiber Menace  (Read 3879 times)

bill

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Fiber Menace
« on: November 30, 2017, 09:02:19 PM »
Boundless:


Have you read Fiber Menace by Konstatin Monastyrsky?
You recently answered a question about microbiome on
DD site.  Thought you'd be interested in it.


I'm pretty much aligned with Konstantin's thinking.

Rita

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 09:09:39 AM »
What are some of the highlights from the book Bill?

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2017, 11:03:07 AM »

If you're interested, here's what I get:


The reasons that fiber is not good for humans are basically
those same reasons put forth by fiber advocates. 


Fiber adds to satiety.  Yes, it does, but filling your stomach is
not a good measure of satiety.  Your stomach will just increase
in size to accommodate increased pressure, and you'll lose out
over time. Bigger stomach would lead to more fiber/food needed.
Healthy satiety comes from giving your body the nutrients it needs.


Fiber is not a "nutrient."  Wood shavings offer no nutrition to humans.
Fiber helps you eliminate.  Yes, it does, but using that mechanism
over time leads to needing more and more fiber to get the same
results.  As Dr. Eric Westman says, "Bringing fiber to ease
constipation is like adding cars to relieve a traffic jam." 
Study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435786/pdf/WJG-18-4593.pdf


Fiber (some) is digested by bacteria in your lower gut into amino acids.  Yes
it is, but they are acidic (hence the name) and your lower gut
cannot absorb what you might need from that.  Also, the
byproduct of that process is gasses, which distend your gut,
causing damage to what is supposed to be tight lining, resulting
in pain, not to mention flatulence which is unnecessary.


Fiber is "undigestible"  Hello.  Your intestines will continue to try to
digest it, with resultant secretions of acids and hormones (such as
insulin) when it detects more substance going through. 


Fiber slows down your digestion.  Yes, that is true.  One of the problems
as we age is longer digestion time.  Adding fiber just slows it down more.


Fiber slows the absorption of sugars.  Yes, that is true, but your pancreas
will continue to secrete insulin to try to deal with the sugars it continues
to see over longer periods. 


The healthier digestion is to get the sugars
out of the digestion and bloodstream quickly so you are not hyperinsulinemic.


I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 06:25:19 PM by Rita »

martygras

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2017, 12:38:36 PM »
If I recall correctly, Dr. Davis' take on fiber is that it is largely falacy, but that doesn't discount fiber's effects altogether.

Bob Niland (Boundless)

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2017, 03:22:03 PM »
bill: Have you read Fiber Menace by Konstatin Monastyrsky?

Nope, and based what of it I can see in Amazon's LookInside feature, I don't plan to.

These terms do not appear in the Index: gut flora, microbiome, resistant starch, prebiotic, probiotic, insoluble, soluble. There are 3 main classes of dietary fiber (digestible, soluble and insoluble), each with its own distinct benefits/hazards, and he seems to have had no awareness of that. So there's less apparent insight here than I would expect, even for a 2005 book.
___________
Bob Niland [disclosures] [topics]

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2017, 04:30:58 PM »
Boundless:

Most of those topics are exhaustively discussed in the book
without being put into the index.  How can you make the claim that he
has no awareness just by looking in the index?  If he did put your
group of words in the index, he'd have to cite every page of the book.

Your loss.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 06:26:43 PM by Rita »

Bob Niland (Boundless)

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2017, 06:13:40 PM »
Bill,

That's why I said "seems" and "apparent". There are more books out there than I have time to read (Salt Fix is still on my shelf awaiting some attention). I use what I can see in LookInside to prioritize the candidates.

I agree that when key topics are pervasive, the author doesn't Index every instance, but they do need to tag the key ones (such as where terms are defined), and if whole chapters are about them, they get into the ToC as well (having done this work many times).

Based on your remarks, it appears that Menace suffered at the hands hands of a co-author, editor, compositor or publisher that lacked awareness of the topic.

Since you have read it, do you think that would add or subtract anything from the post-2013 Wheat Belly or Undoctored programs?
___________
Bob Niland [disclosures] [topics]

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2017, 10:27:36 PM »

Boundless:


Sorry, I cannot parse this:


"Since you have read it, do you think that would add or subtract anything from the post-2013 Wheat Belly or Undoctored programs?"


Also:
"Based on your remarks, it appears that Menace suffered..."


Is this a dig?  What are you saying?  This type of dialog seems
beneath you.


I highly recommend Fiber Menace
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 06:27:53 PM by Rita »

Rita

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2017, 11:25:16 AM »
But how about those important short chain fatty acids the fiber eating bacteria produce such as butyric acid?

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2017, 01:50:41 PM »


But how about those important short chain fatty acids the fiber eating bacteria produce such as butyric acid?

Rita:

Do you have any citations showing their benefit?
I've not seen any convincing evidence that fiber
solves any problems.  Have you?

{sorry about the formatting.  I can't seem to get it right}
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 06:29:22 PM by Rita »

Rita

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2017, 06:19:15 PM »

No worries on the formatting Bill.  :)  I'll clean it up a little (so ignore the moderator 'edit' for that.)   If you copy/paste from a word doc, it's best to first click the icon that has the [ ] with the arrow in it.   Helps to get rid of all the formatting.   (It's one of the downsides of this forum software.)

Here's a list of benefits:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3399949/

And butyric acid is one of the short chain fatty acids gut bacteria produce.   It's the preferred food source for colon cells.



-  It's effective in treating IBD, Crohn's and ulcerative colitis, which is why butyric enemas are gaining more attention.
http://www.microbiologyresearch.org/docserver/fulltext/jmm/59/2/141.pdf


- Butyric acid had a normalizing effect on colon cancer cells
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1374147/


-Butyrate improves immune response by inducing the production of regulatory T cells.
https://clinicalepigeneticsjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1868-7083-4-4


- Mice that were fed butyric acid have a lower rate of insulin resistance


- Butyrate causes a large and rapid decrease in intestinal permeability
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18346306


- Butyrate has a direct protective role in cardiovascular diseases.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312834/




bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2017, 09:56:41 PM »
Rita:

The papers you link typically make assumptions that
fiber is good and go from there, like, "How good?"

The first paper's title actually says "benefits of dietary fiber: beyond the usual suspects..."
An assumption right there.  The paper links to another
that says in its first line, "Dietary fiber is a term that reflects a heterogeneous group of natural food sources, processed grains, and commercial supplements..."  How can these be any good?

What I've found is as Dr. Davis has talked about
when the studies have been done, they compare
whole wheat to refined flour and then say, "See,
the whole wheat is very healthy."  Just like saying
filtered cigarettes are healthier than unfiltered. 


Your first link even says, "cohort study of 74,091 females over 12 years found women in the highest quintile for whole grain consumption had a 49% lower risk of major weight gain than women..." What do you want me to learn from that?

Your second link references rat studies:  "...orum, was superior in decreasing lesions in a rat IBD model..."
The fact that butyrate is healthy for the lower gut is
true, but that doesn't mean you must eat fiber to have
your gut bacteria create it.  The gut bacteria can live
on secretions from your intestines and do so, normally.
You don't need 'roughage' to get these benefits.  In fact
that paper says, "...Although a decrease in the number of lactic
acid bacteria has been shown in IBD, administration of lactic acid
bacteria has yielded inconsistent results with respect to the treatment of IBD."
They are admitting fiber doesn't work well.  What do you want me
to learn from that?

Third link:  Yes, butyric acid is beneficial.  Rat and in vitro study where
they say, "...shown that guar gum and oat bran, while highly fermentable,
are associated with low butyrate levels in the distal colon, while wheat bran causes..."
What do you want me to learn from that?

You're the administrator for a "Wheat Free Forum" and the
first three studies laud the benefits of...wheat!
Not very convincing.

The rest are studies showing the benefits of butyric acid.
As I said, you don't need fiber to attain the benefits.  Konstantin
Monastyrsky agrees with the benefits of butyric acid but he
shows how and why you are benefited highly by forgoing
the fiber.

Again, have you found any convincing evidence of ingesting fiber?
I have not.

Fiber Menace is a good book and you might learn much from it.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 02:42:10 PM by Rita »

Rita

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2017, 02:32:10 PM »
Chris Kresser has a good article:  https://chriskresser.com/myths-and-truths-about-fiber/

bill

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bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2017, 06:34:35 PM »

Here's from Jason Fung's post today:
https://idmprogram.com/nutrition-and-cancer/

Down a few paragraphs he talks about fiber and
cancer.

Where's the positive studies re: fiber?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 10:14:46 AM by Rita »

Rita

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2018, 10:17:27 AM »
Bill -  what is your thought on resistant starch?


I was reading more about the Potato Hack.   Interestingly, eating only cooked cooled potatoes for a 3 day period will put you in ketosis.

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2018, 04:27:16 PM »
I'm not sold on resistant starch.  Seems like just a
reason for people to eat more carbs.  Cook it then
cool it overnight, then heat it up to nor more than
130 F and eat it under a waning gibbous and it
magically doesn't affect your blood sugar (add game
show buzzer here).


Do you have any citations showing benefits?

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2018, 11:16:41 PM »
Rita:


This was just posted today by Dr. Davis:


"Also, don’t fall for the argument that cooling cooked potatoes or rice allows the sugars to reconvert back to fibers, called “retrogradation”; this does indeed happen but only to a slight degree. The great majority of sugars do [/size]not[/color] convert to fiber."[/font][/color]

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2018, 11:47:53 AM »
I didn't do any of that formatting.  I just copied and pasted
from Dr. Davis's site.

Barbara from New Jersey

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2018, 05:33:02 PM »
Bill, 


You got it wrong!  It is the waxing gibbous that magically cuts the carbs and makes the resistant starch not affect your blood sugar!!!!!   :D :D :D

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2018, 11:31:41 AM »
My bad.   :)

Rita

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2018, 08:31:29 PM »
Did you know that eating only cooked cooled potatoes can put you in ketosis?

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2018, 09:21:54 AM »

Here's a post by Professor Timothy Noakes a few minutes ago
[/size]on the Reddit Sub Ketoscience:[/color][/size]

I think you final question is absolutely appropriate. The evidence that fibre has health benefits is based on speculation not fact (ie not on rigorously conducted randomized controlled trials). The makers of breakfast cereals have driven this belief in the benefits of fibre over the years but in the absence of hard evidence). The same for the story about the biome. I think you have to experiment for yourself and find what works.
[/color]

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2018, 09:25:06 AM »

Here's the thread that just ended a few minutes ago.
Well worth your time:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/comments/7pa0e7/introducing_rketoscience_amas_done_by_leaders_in/
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 05:54:51 PM by Rita »

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2018, 09:26:27 AM »
Rita:


Can you help with the formatting, please?

Rita

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2018, 05:57:05 PM »
Fixed.




bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2018, 09:15:31 AM »
Here's a question and answer session worth your time.
I generally agree with what they have to say about fiber:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrmvYl1DVfw&feature=youtu.be&utm_source=Diagnosis+Diet+Website+Subscribers&utm_campaign=1a7bf63823-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_02_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_9c1de9d3bb-1a7bf63823-51562353

I watched it mostly at 1.5x speed.

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2018, 09:48:32 AM »

Just coincidentally, Georgia Ede referred to Amber O'Hearn recently:
http://www.ketotic.org/

Just another part in the puzzle.  To bad Boundless has ducked out of
this thread.

Sorry about the formatting thing.

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2018, 12:12:25 PM »
"Too" bad...  Doncha hate that?

Rita

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2018, 08:39:06 AM »
Well... you can always eat a lot of butter.  ;D

Rita

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2018, 09:00:41 AM »
How about the role fiber plays in absorbing bile that is carrying toxins, estrogen, and other waste products.  Without fiber, bile and everything it's carrying, just get reabsorbed into the body again.

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2018, 11:21:13 AM »
And you have references for these assertions?

Rita

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2018, 03:28:56 AM »
Bile is reabsorbed if it's not bound to fiber.  If it's bound to fiber, it comes out in the feces and the liver makes fresh bile.   When bound, it takes cholesterol and waste with it.  Bile salts are made of cholesterol.  Cholesterol as you know is a precursor to many sex hormones such as estrogen and testosterone.  (Which is why statin use leads to viagra use.)


Here's the role of bile:  http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/liver/bile.html


This is how bile binds to fiber:  http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/dietary_fiber.html#bile


On fiber lowering cholesterol:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21776465


On fiber lowering estrogen:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8039147


Binding capacity of fiber on certain toxins:  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304389410014159
















bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2018, 04:49:37 PM »
Rita:


Why do you do this:


From your source:


"...bicity of the sterol have been shown to affect the adsorption of bile acids to certain hydrocolloids. The adsorption capacity of bile acids to wheat, corn, oat, barley and rice fibers was favored by an acidic pH environment, large hydrophobic surface area and greater hydrophobicity of the bile acid. Adsorption of bile acids by dietary fiber is one of the proposed mechanisms for the hypocholesterolemic effect of dietary fiber. Increased fecal excretion of bile acids leads to the increased metabolism of cholesterol in the liver, thus lowering serum cholesterol levels. Evidence in human subjects suggests that soluble fibers such as [/size]pectin[/color][/size], [/size]psyllium[/color][/size], [/size]guar,[/color][/size]and [/size]oat bran[/color][/size] are effective serum cholesterol-lowering agents [[/size]1360[/color][/size]]. Bile acids have been implicated in the etiology of colon cancer [[/size]229[/color][/size]]. A number of studies have shown that colorectal cancer patients have higher levels of secondary bile acids both entering and leaving the colon. There is a strong relationship between cereal fiber consumption and the prevention of colorectal cancer. Many of the most effective dietary fibe..."
[/size]
[/size]and again:
[/size]
[/size]" Cereal fibers are particularly effective at binding or partitioning putative co-carcinogens such as fecapentaenes, heterocyclic amines, and secondary bile acids into the matrix of the fiber, thus reducing their cytotoxic effect..."
[/size]
[/size]Do you want us to eat more grains?  I'm confused.

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2018, 04:54:33 PM »
From your source:

"... reduced serum cholesterol and thus a decreased risk of cardiovascular disease..."

Do you still believe this?

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2018, 04:57:15 PM »
From your source:

"...control period during which the diet was high in fat (40% of calories as fat) ..."

Do you believe 40% is "high in fat"?


bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2018, 05:02:41 PM »
From your source:

"In vitro binding capacities of three dietary fibers and their mixture for four toxic elements, cholesterol, and bile acid"

...begs the questions: Does this happen in vivo, and
is this something our bodies must have to deal with
the four toxic elements?  This study doesn't make
those cases.

Rita

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2018, 08:51:07 AM »

bill

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2018, 09:55:16 AM »
Rita:


Why do you continue to do this?  Hyman's
article links to another of his own that says
this:


"Eat whole unprocessed foods with plenty of fiber: vegetables, beans, nuts, seeds, and whole grains. "You're confusing me and probably everyone else on this site.  I see nothing in his article that leads to anything close to evidence.  Sorry for the formatting thing.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 10:10:41 PM by Rita »

Rita

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Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2018, 10:14:14 PM »
Bill-

I fixed the formatting.

Quote
Why do you continue to do this?

I thought we were having a discussion on fiber.   I'm just posting information on the topic for discussion.  I personally disagree with your perspective on fiber.  I think fiber is extremely important.  However, I think we can agree to disagree and I think it's good to hear all sides of the debate.   I believe it's important for visitors reading this thread to have the information to make their own decisions.

Wheat Free Forum

Re: Fiber Menace
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2018, 10:14:14 PM »

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